Atlantic Wall prep

HQ for planning the next gaming event in Sandusky
DaveM1
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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by DaveM1 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:15 pm

tombeach wrote:
....snip....

There is no good excuse for releasing a game series of this complexity level without a tight, or very near tight set of rules. None. Moreover, where is the much needed GOSS v2 Errata? Again, no excuse at this stage

....snip....

But the real tragedy here in my opinion, is that even players who like detailed simulations (e.g. OCS/EFS/La Bataille) and are willing to read a lot of pages may be turned back from GOSS long before they ever experience the aforementioned beauty of Joe's design, all as a result of the sloppy rules-writing itself.

..snip

I'm with you here.

I have NO problem with complex rules, and I'm all for investing for long term return. But deep down I was afraid that something so very disorganized would prove to be truly half baked, and that after all the work to figure out what the rule MEANT to say or SHOULD have said we'd end up with a nearly broken game.

It's good to hear that underneath the mess there's a pretty exciting good foundation. If and when a real set of fully developed clearly organized rules comes out GOSS may pop back up on my own personal radar....but I continue to be concerned that the rampant disorganization seen on paper goes down deeper than the surface.

Dave Morris

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:31 am

I appreciate what you're saying, Dave. Truth is, its exactly opposite. There is a well thought-out and brilliant design in there. Its just obscured by the presentation of same. Hope you will return to giving it a try with Merv after the convention. Dave N. and I have talked about coming back from Winterfest and playing more of it. IF we can't, I plan on soloing Wacht or Hurtgen.

Tom

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by shturmovik » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:36 pm

So I am trying to prepare for Winterfest by playing the 1st scenario and I can't find enough 88 AT coys. Am I missing something or is this another error?
Plus two of the 1st SS btns are listed as PzG whereas the counters are mot inf.

I am thus thinking of creating more standard scenario set-up cards.
The RAW unit id-only way of listing units may save space but it lacks the visual appeal of say Russian Campaign or Squad Leader scenario displays.

Greg.

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:38 pm

Hi Greg,

Yes, these are most likely errors.

I counted 6x 88 AT 2-3(7)-12 needed and only found 2x in counter mix. I presume the two 1st SS PnzGrd Bats you're speaking of are the reinforcement's I/I/1SS and I/2/1SS? Indeed those are Mot Inf and not Grenadier counters. I have no idea which is correct, the counters or the OB, but I have deferred to the counters in such cases. At least until the forthcoming counter errata which Joe has spoken of on CSW is sent. I found at least half a dozen errors in the Scenario 4 OB as well. Just more stuff that's wrong piled on the same.

I made a post at BGG: Breakdown Counters too. There I pointed out that there are only 20x Inf breakdown counters for US and 16 for UK infantry in the counter mix. Checking the AW2 special rules for exceptions on limits, and having found none, I presume this simply means that Joe expects you to own Wacht and/or Hurtgen and cannibalize one or both of those games for additional counters or make your own. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. And if I'm right I consider that option utter bull. No good reason for not providing counters such as these which will clearly be in great demand and needed to play the game as presented. If it means an extra countersheet or two, so be it. Add it to the price of the game, make life simple and move on. After all, its already a $240.00 game.

Regarding the OB, I'm okay with RAW unit ID. But how much more ink/paper would it require to actually list the placement hexes on a unit-by-unit basis? The sheer amount of time required to look back and forth from the tiny repro maps to the board, back to the map, back to the repro map (what's the name of that town again? what's that piece of terrain that little divisional set-up line is adjacent to? how many hexes was that -- over three, up five and left one?) back to the map, all for one lousy division/units placement is maddening! Bite the bullet and spend the money to print a separate Scenarios booklet! One of the first hurdles I have to overcome with new players in order to prevent them from walking away is their own unit set-ups! The contorted facial responses and groans begin before you've even got your counters on the map. Such things as this are not errors, they are choices driven mostly by time, effort and money. And poor choices at that. Too bad given so many other wonderful things about the games.

As Major Gowen liked to say... "Why do we bother, Fawlty?" :lol:

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by shturmovik » Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:39 am

Found another error, or two.
German inf btn, II/980/272, is on the map graphic, but not on the text listing by hex. It's clearly meant to be there, propping up the southern half of Caen, hex C4623.
Next, the number of Allied 'funnies' listed in the text do not match the graphic. Went with map as it was correct on the missing German inf btn.
Did anyone seriously proofread this?

I am still gung-ho to play this monster, having given up on the original SPI AW long ago as being too generic, too simple. This is the other extreme! I hope I can get to grips with it in the few days I have out in OH.

Greg.

"Don't mention the war!"

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:34 pm

I am please to announce that I was indeed wrong on Breakdown counters and my criticisms for which I apologize for and withdraw. The following are posts from the BGG forum:
I have found that there are only 12(?) US Inf. Breakdown counters available for the AW game. Similarly for the Brits. As I've confirmed there are no limitations on numbers, I'm wondering how these 12 counters will begin to suffice? And I don't like cannibalizing markers from other games in a series (yes, I'm anal that way). Is there plans to expand the number of US/UK Breakdown Coy's in the errata counter printing?
Tom,

No plans to print more of these in the counter printing. Part of the reason to limit the number is the sheer number of units involved and keeping track of them, and part of it is a troop quality issue. Many of these divs were new to combat (unlike their status by the time of Hurtgen and Wacht) so limiting the number of bkdns was intentional. Definitely why we did not include mech inf bkdwn companies for the armor divs for the Allies.
Thank you for your reasoning, Joe. Even with my limited knowledge, what you're saying makes perfect sense now. But without any AW Special Rules exceptions noting that, players like me will presume use of breakdowns is unlimited. I hope this exception will be noted in the forthcoming AW2 errata to help guide game play in the direction you intended as its clearly important to you, the designer. Much appreciated.
Last edited by tombeach on Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:37 pm

And here is the exchange on the Airborne Mod questions as answered by, Joe. Very important reply to clarify playing the module. And while Joe didn't directly answer the first question about the Ox & Bucks and Howard's unit, I presume my assumption there is correct too.
Q: Am I correct that the 2-2-6 Ox & Bucks unit shown landing during the Glider segment is in fact Howard's 1-1-6 which lands in Step 1? I have no such unit in my counter inventory.

Q: Am I correct that the Merville GLider unit is in fact a 1 step unit and not a z-step unit?

Q: Is there Advance After Combat during the combat phases of the Airborne Module? Only Retreats are covered.

Thanks

Tom
Gunny and Tom,

Answered those questions over on CSW. No advance after combat (intentional).


Plus, the units you cited were the correct ones to use for Merville and the Ranville bridges.

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:17 am

Yes, proofreading is one of the big issues I have with the material.

Glad to hear you're still up for AW, Greg. As Merv said, I'm sure we're all going to have a great time with this game!

Good news (IMHO). Joe confirmed he was definitely sticking with Western Front for the next GOSS title.

Tom

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by MTierney » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:00 pm

Tom,
That is good news to me as well. I am a Western Front guy (USA) also.

We have a question yet, concerning fuel. Rule says infantry don't require fuel, but that US divisions are mech. If you choose not to fuel or low fuel a division are the infantry affected, or just the divisions motorized (HQ, artillery)?
Merv

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:38 pm

Hi Merv,

My understanding when I investigated fuel with Joe was that you are correct, No/Low Fuel status for US ID's is marked on the HQ and thus affects those HQ's when they move, attached arty and any truck motorized units of said divisions. It is also my belief that this fuel status includes both use of Army Truck Point Motorization as well as inherent US 1-point TP's.

I am spending today organizing that list of questions I had promised and should post that this weekend for your consideration.

Me too! I much prefer Western/Med/Africa titles to that of the east and had a sense that Joe too was of the same stripe. would love to see his next title be on Sicily!

Tom

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