Atlantic Wall prep

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tombeach
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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:50 pm

Merv,

No response to several questions on CSW site. Perhaps the holidays.

I have spent the last 24 hours intensely revisiting the Logistics rules to try and make sure I understand them correctly. As this is critical for both sides from nearly the outset, let me run it past you to make sure we're on the same page.

Due to again, poor rules writing, I am still not quite sure about the following, although I believe I have it right now as offered below.

When rolling on the Logistics Table after assigning TP's, my question is this:

Q: Does the Ammo Point Delivery roll obtained from the Logistics Table get added to the Army Ammo Points marker?

I think not.

My understanding is this:

The Ammo Point Delivery Value is added or subtracted (as per the modified roll) strictly to the Army Artillery Depletion Value which is tracked up, down or not at all as determined by that result. The Ammo Points marker for an army itself is never moved by these Logistics Table results. It seems to me that the only time an army's Ammo Points marker is moved, either up or down, is through either a) the expenditure of Army Artillery Depletion Value points (increasing AmP) or, in reverse, b) by the expenditure of AmP's to increase the Army Artillery Depletion Value. The bottom line concern for me is that the Ammo Points marker is not adjusted by any result obtained from the Logistics Table.

If ever an Example of play was needed in GOSS rules, this surely must be high on the list.

I hope I've made this clear! :?: Can you confirm my understanding of this, Merv?

Thanks

Tom

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:29 pm

Merv,

Thought I'd just start copying my Q's to Joe on CSW board here for your convenience and consideration. I will post JY's answers when they come.


GOSS 16.4.4 Fuel Requirements

AW Exclusive Rules state that "All Allied divisions are considered mechanized." Further, "Allied infantry divisions require two FP for normal fuel status and 1 FP for Low Fuel."

Q: If the US 83rd ID's HQ is given a 'No Fuel' status during the FP assignment phase, are the leg infantry units which are part of the 83rd ID UNAFFECTED by GOSS 16.4.5c Fuel Value & Unit MA?

JY: Leg units are always unaffected by fuel status. As long as they are only using Leg movement.

Q: Are those same leg units of the 83rd ID simultaneously AFFECTED by GOSS 16.5.0 PA Mode & Fuel Status?

JY: see above. no effect.

Q: Are ALL of the MU Assets directly attached to the 83rd ID AFFECTED by both rules references stated above?

JY: yes.

Q: Am I missing something or was the Fuel & Reserve Release Table omitted from AW? Will WaR's table stand in as a substitute?

JY: it should be in there somewhere. Check the bottom of the Log table. And it is the same as WaR's table.

Thanks.
Last edited by tombeach on Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by MTierney » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:13 am

Tom,
I continue to be behind your curve here on several posts. We did not play today but worked all weekend on walling off part of the basement here in order to SET UP THE WHOLE GAME! Got the space ready, and hope to get things going full speed here soon. I did go over the Strat map rules before dinner and while they are loosely written, I do understand the basics that we need.

I will try to spend some time tomorrow night going through your last posts and answering. Thanks.
Merv

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:44 am

Hi Merv,

No worries. Sounds like you were busy! Congrats on the new game room coming together.

Re-posted my questions which now include Joe's answers. I was confused on Allied ID's being treated as mech for fuel purposes. I had anticipated Joe's answers but had to be sure. So then, the only reason I could see to fuel an infantry ID would be if you either intend to use TP's to motorize the division, or if you intend to move the HQ which is an MU. Otherwise I can see no reason to waste fueling ID's. Still, you'd have to mark the ID's HQ's with a 'Low' or 'No Fuel' status marker each AM Logistics Phase which seems like a pain in the rump. Does that make sense to you? Have you been playing Allied ID's that way regarding fuel?

Tom

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by MTierney » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:20 am

Tom,
To jump to your last question; we have been fueling the US ID's but there is never enough for all of them. I fuel if they are to use significant movement, otherwise half fuel or none. With the Germans I would think it easier. You would not fuel any ID's. They are foot and horse. Just took in Joe's answers so that seems correct.

I am studying your Army Ammo Point question now....it has been two weeks since we played and still have to refer to the book.
Merv

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:16 am

Dave and I had a very good long session today. We did the slow walk through the Logistics rules and got ourselves to a comfortable place with them. We also sharpened our knowledge on ground assaults as we found we had misinterpreted an rule which turned out to be very important. We drilled down on the importance of fuel and effects of its distribution at all levels. Lots of tactical epiphanies to go along with smiles and grins today, clearly making this our most enjoyable session to date.

I will be posting a few more questions on the CSW forum as well for clairifications.

We'll be back at it on Saturday.

As an aside, after noticing how few 'No Fuel', 'Low Fuel' counters, and no number counters I came up with the following system:

Since there is never a reason to reference back to an HQ for fuel status after No/Low units are rolled for on the Fuel and Reserve Release Table, I dug out some number counters which represent the MP's/Units results received from that table and placed them on top of the HQ's. This permits a quick reference to the MP's allowed for all MU's or the number of MU units allowed full move for that formation. This releases the need for the limited No/Low markers and permits the fuel status number to stand out quite nicely on the board as a reminder. The counters I used came from my copy of VG's Pacific War. Tell me what you think of this idea, Merv. If you think it worthy, perhaps you could bring these counters, assuming you have a punched PW. Or I could bring mine as you wish.

I realize there may be a desire to keep such information on paper to preserve FoW rules as well. Your thoughts on that and the level of paperwork to note such things would also be appreciated.

Tom

[img]
AW_Pic_1.jpg
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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by MTierney » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:52 pm

Tom,
Good to hear you guys making progress. The markers are fine or we could use VERY SMALL dice. I bought if metal box full of these some years ago at Origins and we use them for a multitude of things. They are tiny, don't cover the counter and rather inconspicuous. Either way is fine.

Shawn and I took several hours New Years Day shoehorning the whole game into our new room (still a lot of other storage items in there) and started the para drops last night. We are going to concentrate on the landing rules again for now. It is wonderful to see the whole thing set up again. It was a heart breaker having to tear it all down last year after just getting it set up!

I have been watching for Joe's answers to some of your questions on BGG also, especially the one on ADV. As I understood it the die roll on the Logistics table (first value) is not added to the Army base value but is distributed to the subordinate corps each day.
Merv

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:57 pm

Hi Merv,

I can only envy the pleasure of seeing the whole thing set up. Sounds awe-inspriring! Can't wait to see it for myself.

We can probably use preferred No/Low Fuel marking system for each side without any difficulty or confusion. My only concern with the dice thing is that the d6 will not suffice in some instances, as there are results for 7 and 8 on the Fuel & Reserve Release Table. Again, small concern and we can go the each to his own approach. Also, I thought that by using the PW counters, they could be placed beneath the HQ's both preserving FoW while serving the previously stated needs. They are a bit distracting looking.

Haven't posteed the latest batch of questions for Joe yet. But when I do I will be posting them on CSW. If you'd like, I'll also post them over to BGG as I recall you mentioning some access difficulties with CSW.

As for the ADV adjustments during the Logistics phases, a review of the GOSS rules would seem to support my interpretations:

16.2.3e Adjusting Base ADV
(second bullet)
" Add the army’s total delivery points (16.2.3) to the army ADV. Each delivery point increases or decreases an army ADV by one."

Now by your reference to (first value) I presume you too are referring to the Final Ammo Delivery Value which is obtained via the Logistics Table roll, left of slash. Assuming this, the rule would clearly seem to indicate that the result obtained is added/subtracted directly to the Army ADV from it's present position on the track.

(sixth bullet)
"Place subordinate corps ADV markers in the appropriate numbered block corresponding to that army’s adjusted ADV. If an army does [sic: does not] support a corps, the ADV of that corps is zero and no adjustments can be made to that corps ADV."

This too would seem to support the process of adding the Logistic Tables Ammo result to the Army's ADV. Then the Corps ADV's are placed in the same track box the adjusted Army ADV marker resides in after those adjustments.

Not sure we have a difference of opinion but think we do. The above process is how we interpreted the correct use of the Logistics Table result (Final Ammo Delivery Value) and it's relationship to the movement of Army ADV up/down and then the placement of Corps ADV markers on the tracks.

Your thoughts?

Tom

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by MTierney » Sun Jan 04, 2015 1:07 pm

Tom,
You are too polite. Just tell me I am wrong, which it seems I am here. I went over the whole thing again using Joe's detail on this in the errata. You do adjust the Army ADV based on the delivery points. I may need to alter the Excel tool we are using to better reflect this.

We had a good day yesterday, got through the airborne drops (good US and very poor Brit) and the 1st beach landing phase for all beach's. Went pretty smooth.

Have one burning question related to airborne combat segment. Do DRM during this phase apply to more than one line? As in attacking the Merville Battery; does the German get DRM for the strong point AND terrain or only one? The way it is written seems to say one or the other. We cannot agree here.

Another question is do successful attacks allow the attacker in airborne combat to advance after combat. It does not say so, we have not been, but it seems silly not to. You make the defender retreat and he then moves right back into the hex. Thoughts on that?

By the way, I loved that picture you posted. Very cool! I will have to figure that out.

Merv

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Re: Atlantic Wall prep

Post by tombeach » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:13 pm

Just when you thought you understood it!

Please review Joe's post on ADV if you haven't already done so, Merv. A few very important changes and clarifications.

Tom

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/17913645#17913645

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